SINGH SABHA OF NEW YORK Inc.

1. WAHEGURU

WAHEGURU

In my humble opinion the Gurbani word WAHEGURU is composed of two

words- Wahid and Guru. Wahid is Persian/Urdu word meaning "the Only

One" and Guru is now known to every body in the world.

So I think Gurbani refers the word Waheguru to  "the One and One

Only Guru " = Universal God or Ikk Onkar

 Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh

 Please correct my opinion. 

According to Sikh Scholar G S Talib(in Encyp. of Sikhism), Vahiguru

is a compound of two words, one from Persian and the other from

Sanskrit. Vah in Persian is an interjection of wonder and admiration

and Guru in Sanskrit means a spiritual parent or preceptor.

According to McLeod( Historical Dictionary), the term 'vah guru'

first appears in the Janam -sakhis where it means 'Praise to the

Guru'. The two words eventually coalesced to form one of the

characteristic names of God.

 Surprisingly, though it is now very popular with Sikhs , yet Sikh

Gurus did not use it their bani in Guru Granth Sahib.

 With regards,

The word 'Waheguru'has not been used by any Sikh Guru in his Bani incorporated in the Aad Guru Granth Sahib (AGGS). This word has been used only for Guru Ramdas by Bhatt Gyand in the AGGS. Gurbani in AGGS is the only authetic source of information.

But when Waheguru, Waheguru, Waheguru is repetead again and again by many Sikhs in the Gurdwaras, are they addressing to Guru Ramdas?

I also understand that Bhai Gurdas and many scholars have tried to justify that Waheguru is for God.

Just an observation without any comments on previous discussion.

Prof Devinder Singh Chahal, PhD

INSTITUTE FOR UNDERSTANDING SIKHISM

URL:  http://chahal.info

Tiwana Ji wrote: "Surprisingly, though it is now very popular with

Sikhs , yet Sikh

Gurus did not use it their bani in Guru Granth Sahib."

But there are many times Waheguru word is used. Following are the

quotes from SGGS:

Page 1402, line11

vwihgurU vwihgurU vwihgurU vwih jIau ]

Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o.

Page 1402, line14

siq swcu sRI invwsu Awid purKu sdw quhI vwihgurU vwihgurU vwihgurU

vwih jIau ]1]6]

You are forever True, the Home of Excellence, the Primal Supreme

Being. Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o. ||1||6||

Page 1402, line 18

siq swcu sRI invwsu Awid purKu sdw quhI vwihgurU vwihgurU vwihgurU

vwih jIau ]2]7]

You are forever True, the Home of Excellence, the Primal Supreme

Being. Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o. ||2||7||

Page 1403, line 2

siq swcu sRI invwsu Awid purKu sdw quhI vwihgurU vwihgurU vwihgurU

vwih jIau ]3]8]

You are forever True, the Home of Excellence, the Primal Supreme

Being. Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o. ||3||8||

Page 1403, line 18

kIAw Kylu bf mylu qmwsw vwihgurU qyrI sB rcnw ]

You have formed and created this play, this great game. O Waahay

Guru, this is all You, forever.

I think Waheguru word means `there is One and Only One Primal Supreme

Being'

Please correct me further.

Thanks.

Balbir Ji,

Sat Sri Akal :

You are right, the word Waheguru does exist in SGGS, but the point is it is

not used by Sikh Gurus there. It is used in

the hymns of Bhatt Gayand and Varan of Bhai Gurdas……"

We already had discussion on this question some time back. S. Joginder

Singh ji Ahluwalia, a very knowledgeable member of SD, explained this to

the satisfaction of all of us as he always does . Here are the lines from

old messages,

"Jagpal S.Tiwana" wrote: Sat Sri Akal :

When I wrote in missive # 5430 that the word " Vahiguru" is not found in the compositions of the Gurus in Guru Granth Sahib, I got this information from Encyclopedia of Sikhism, "In Sikh scripture, Guru Granth Sahib, the term does not figure in the compositions of Gurus, though it occurs…… in the hymns of Bhatt Gayand and Varan of Bhai Gurdas……" .............. Ahluwalia ji replied

In Sri Guru Granth Sahib, the word "Wahiguru" occurs 13 times, 9 times on page 1402 and 4 times on page 1403. The author is Bhatt Gayand. Again the word "Wahguru" (note spellings) occurs 3 times, 2 times on page 1403 and 1 time on page 1404. Again the author is Bhatt Gayand. Two different spelling forms have been used. The composition in both cases is Sawaiye Mahalle Chauthe Ke 4. That means these swaiyas are written in the praise of Mahalla 4. The author is not Guru Ram Das Ji. I have used the search engine of "Gurbani Researcher" CD ROM by IIGS and verified physically from Shabdarath. The entry in the Encyclopedia of Sikhism (Vol. 4, p. 399) by G.S. Talib seems to be correct. Please correct me if I am wrong. Joginder Ahluwalia Richmond, CA

Trust this helps

Dear Members,

Thanks Balbir for your Gurbani search for "Waheguru"

If further confirmation is reqired by some inquisitives, please go to the following URL: http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/ . Pritpal

*************************************

Pritpal Singh Bindra

Winner: '98 Akali Phoola Singh Book Award

Publications in English

Both Mr Tiwana and Dr Joginder Singh Ahluwalia are right and Encyclopedia of Sikhism has also tried to make it clear that "WAHEGURU" has not been used by any Guru in their Bani, which has been incorporated in the Aad Guru Granth Sahib.

The point to be ponder upon is:

The fact is that Bhatt Gayand has used "WAHEGURU" to address Guru Ramdas on Page 1402 &3 of the Aad Guru Granth Sahib.

The question is why did Bhai Gurdas has equated WAHEGURU to the GOD. If the Bhai Gurdas's Vaaran are the "KEY TO THE GRANTH", as is being taught in Sikh literature, then this key is not solving the problem.(Not opening the lock)

Now this word is repeated many times in the Gurdwaras and at homes.

Prof Devinder Singh Chahal, PhD

INSTITUTE FOR UNDERSTANDING SIKHISM

URL:  http://chahal.info

Dear members

Sat Sri Akal

It is correct to say that in the verses of the Gurus the

word 'Waheguru'does not occur.I think it is as it should be.Waheguru

is an expression of ecstasy for getting the object of worship which

is the God Almighty manifested in the mind of the devotee.All verses

of the Gurus in the SGGS are verses of the Gurus as Gurus.The Guru as

devotee must have experienced something which he could callWahguru

but his experience was that of a Sikh.It is for this reason

that 'Waheguru' occurs in the Bani of Bhats whose profession was to

sing eulogies of jajmans.I think that in the SGGS there is use

of 'wah'and 'guru'together in one verse where'guru' is used first

and 'wah' later.

"Waheguru" was an issue in Tat Khalsa discussions in the early 20th Century. Teja Singh Bhasaur among many others in a group of Singh Sabhas argued a substitution of the word for WahGuru in texts and salutations. His circulation of booklets with sections of gurbani, in which this change was made, and of course, the major transgression to removing the Ragmala from copies of the Adi Granth, led finally to his expulsion from the panth. Both issues, as well as many others championed by the more aggressive Tat Khalsa groups, remain topics of debate on SD and in a wider network of websites and public arenas.

The controversy regarding the term "Waheguru" continues to persist. The followers of Bhasaur rejected it and coined a flawed word " Wahugur" instead, which evidently did not find any favor. Today Waheguru is the Sikh term for God, stands for Akal Purakh and is firmly embedded in Sikh consciousness.

Does this term originate from the Adi Granth with its current meaning? Or was it Bhai Gurdas who gave it that meaning, which was later accepted and propagated by everybody. These are some of the questions which have been debated from time to time, while the usage of the term continues.

To begin with there has been a difference of opinion whether the composite word "Waheguru" exists in Sri Guru Granth Sahib or not. The Granth published by SGPC contains the composite word in two forms- Waheguru (13 times) and Wahguru (3 times) in Savaiye Mahle Chauthe ke 4, in the verses of Bhatt Gayand (p. 1402-4). Bhai Sahib Singh in his famous Darpan says that the word should be separated and read as Wahe Guru, and it in no way signifies Akal Purakh. Guru here is Guru Ram Das, and Bhatt Gayand is singing his and not Akal Purakh’s praise. Other scholars, such as Teja Singh et al ( Shabdarth), Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha, Bhai Vir Singh, Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh, do not seem to agree with this view of Sahib Singh. According to them, the composite word Waheguru means Akal Purakh. In his verses Bhatt Gayand equates Guru Ram Das with various Hindu avatars, Sri Guru, Satguru and Waheguru. The attributes of Waheguru or Wahguru (which is the same thing) are those of Akal Purakh as defined  in SGGS. The confusion seems to arise from the fact that in Gurbani, Guru or Brahamgyani have also been given the same attributes.

Almost all the Gurus have used the word “Wahu”, mainly in duplicate as Wahu Wahu (pronounced Waaho) several times in SGGS. Bhatt Gayand has also used it (Wahu Wahu ka badda tamasha).It has been variously interpreted as a laudatory adjective (wonderful), an interjection (Vah! Vah! or Hail! Hail!), and a noun ( embodiment/object of wonder, that is, Waheguru himself). Note the following:

Wahu Wahu karam(i) praapat hoi….. … p.514

Wahu Wahu Kartia rain sukh vihaa-e…….p. 514

According to Shabdarth, Wahu is a short form (sankhep) of Waheguru.(p.514

On the basis of the above, one may argue that a savant like Bhai Gurdas, who was best placed to know the intent and purpose of the Adi Granth, would not have but derived the term Waheguru from the source, i.e., Adi Granth. It may also be said with conviction that by equating Waheguru with Akal Purakh and declaring it as Gurmantar, he was clarifying the ideas of the Gurus and opening a supposed lock.

In Paurie 49 of Var 1, Bhai Gudas has given an explanation how the term Waheguru was put together. Its four consonants vavva, hahha, gagga and raara come from Vaasdev, Hari, Gobind and Ram. Many scholars think that perhaps Bhai Gurdas did not write this Paurie. (See Bhai Vir Singh’s Varan Bhai Gurdas Sateek).A closer study would reveal that Bhai Gurdas did not say anything which was not already said in the Adi Granth. I would give below one example:

Bhai Gurdas:

Satyug satgur vaasdev vavaa visnaa naam japavai

Asa M.1, Patti, p. 434:

Vavve vaasdeo parmesan vekhan ko jin vas kiya

Vekhe chaakhe sabh kichh jaane antar bahar rav riha.

Similar is the situation with other consonants. Patti and Baavan Akhri compositions of the Adi Granth clarify the meanings of the Kirtam names based on these consonants.

I have attempted to give some plausible answers to the questions that were raised at the forum, but remain open to correction.

Joginder Ahluwalia

Richmond, CA 

norman barrier <barriern@missouri.edu> wrote:"Waheguru" was an issue in Tat Khalsa discussions in the early 20th Century. Teja Singh Bhasaur among many others in a group of Singh Sabhas argued a substitution of the word for WahGuru in texts and salutations. His circulation of booklets with sections of gurbani, in which this change was made, and of course, the major transgression to removing the Ragmala from copies of the Adi Granth, led finally to his expulsion from the panth. Both issues, as well as many others championed by the more aggressive Tat Khalsa groups, remain topics of debate on SD and in a wider network of websites and public arenas.

I wanted to refrain from entering into this discussion,

but as it continues, I thought I might share my own understanding of the word "Wahiguru" -- although I could be totally wrong.

-----------------------

I would humbly suggest that

we would get an answer to this question by

going back to old guru-shish tradition

-- imparting for jaap

a mantra by a guru to the disciple.

And in that light we may study Bhai Gurdas's words:

Drmswl  krqwrpuru swD sMgiq scKMfu vswieAw [

vwihgurU gur sbdu sunwieAw [

 In Kartarpur [Guru Nanak] established holy congregation

As the Realm Eternal - the Realm of Truth.

And imparted [to sadh sangat]

Divine Word Vahiguru.

             (Varan Bhai Gurdas, Var 24.1)

To the best of my information that practice is still followed by the Namdharis.

Please consult some Namdhari, and find out, if he can share the information, as to what  gurmantar is imparted to them by their Guruji.

The answer, if given, would be "Wahiguru" which, I believe, they are not supposed to utter loudly, or share with uninitiated persons.

----------------------------------

I personally assume that the word Wahiguru, was coined by Guru Nanak, and must have had a beginning in Wahid Guru (the one and only Guru). I could be 100 percent wrong in this, but the word Wahiguru, as we understand today does mean God -- one and only one Guru.

If I am wrong, I would appreciate learning the correct version.

---------------------------------

Seeking forgiveness for Bhul chuk

Harbans Singh Noor

Vahiguru Ji Ka Khalsa,  Vahiguru Ji Ki Fateh

S. Joginder Singh ji Ahluwalia is always thorough and illuminating. I

enjoyed his well researched missive on Waheguru.

To me Prof. Sahib Singh's and Bhai Gurdas Singh's views make more sense. When the word is used in praise of Guru Ram Das by Bhatt Gayand it is

Wahe  Guru, but when it is used for God, it is Waheguru.

Another thing worth noting is that our links with Hinduism are quite deeper

despite Singh Sabha leaders tried to play them down. It is quite

clear  from  Paurie 49 of Var 1, where Bhai Gudas has given an explanation

how the term Waheguru was put together. Its four consonants vavva, hahha,

gagga and raara come from Vaasdev, Hari, Gobind and Ram.

I hate to make it more complicated, but here is another aspect which should

be considered, ie, the spellings of Waheguru. Is it Waheguru or Wahiguru or

Vahiguru?. Sikh Scholars Gurbachan Singh Talib( Encyclp. Sikhism), Hew

McLeod(Historical Dictionary), Pashaura Singh( see his missives) prefer

Vahiguru. Spellings of this important word must be standardized. It becomes

easy to make a search if all use one standardized spellings.

With warm regards,

Vahiguru Ji Ka Khalsa,  Vahiguru Ji Ki Fate

S. Joginder Singh ji Ahluwalia is always thorough and illuminating. I

enjoyed his well researched missive on Waheguru.

To me Prof. Sahib Singh's and Bhai Gurdas Singh's views make more sense. When the word is used in praise of Guru Ram Das by Bhatt Gayand it is

Wahe  Guru, but when it is used for God, it is Waheguru.

Another thing worth noting is that our links with Hinduism are quite deeper

despite Singh Sabha leaders tried to play them down. It is quite

clear  from  Paurie 49 of Var 1, where Bhai Gudas has given an explanation

how the term Waheguru was put together. Its four consonants vavva, hahha,

gagga and raara come from Vaasdev, Hari, Gobind and Ram.

I hate to make it more complicated, but here is another aspect which should

be considered, ie, the spellings of Waheguru. Is it Waheguru or Wahiguru or

Vahiguru?. Sikh Scholars Gurbachan Singh Talib( Encyclp. Sikhism), Hew

McLeod(Historical Dictionary), Pashaura Singh( see his missives) prefer

Vahiguru. Spellings of this important word must be standardized. It becomes

easy to make a search if all use one standardized spellings.

With warm regards,

From my experience, I have seen Waheguru used more often than the

other two (wahiguru,vahiguru), especially on the internet and

email.  I agree with Tiwana Sahib to standardize, particularly for

the sake of search.  IMHO, we can do without a scholar in this case.

And I personally think of none other than God, when waheguru comes

to mind.

With regards to all,

dr. sukhraj singh dhillon

Harbans Singh Noor writes:

I would humbly suggest that

we would get an answer to this question by

going back to old guru-shish tradition

-- imparting for jaap

a mantra by a guru to the disciple.

And in that light we may study Bhai Gurdas's words:

Drmswl  krqwrpuru swD sMgiq scKMfu vswieAw [

vwihgurU gur sbdu sunwieAw [

 In Kartarpur [Guru Nanak] established holy congregation

As the Realm Eternal - the Realm of Truth.

And imparted [to sadh sangat]

Divine Word Vahiguru.

             (Varan Bhai Gurdas, Var 24.1)

The vaheguru word has been accepted as "gurmantar" by some. (not to mention mantras, jantras and tantras are of no consequence to the sikh) Even so no one has addressed the fact that Bhai Gurdas also stated:

"kal taaran Guru Nanak Aayeaa....

SATNAAM gurmant sunaayeaaa"

Could Bhai Gurdas have contradicted himself? if not, then running with outside literature is only going to lead us away from gurmatt - no matter what the percieved source, since we know we have not been able to save most of it from the anglo-bipar machinations. Satnaam is from the mool mantar. The foundation of the religion. It also denotes just the Truth of the Naam (the unsayable). Lowering God to trinitties and other man made concepts is just not up to the standards of Guru Granth Sahib's expositions.

I think this is a prime example of our falling prey to nitpicking and incursion of versted interests who would do things their way to follow their agendas.  Akal Purukh is fine for most of us, as is every other "kirtam" name of God - as long as it is the ulitmate ONE AND ONLY that is addressed. Trinity, yugas and other speculative concepts are nowhere near the 'Satnaam' invoked in Sikhi. Simple Wah-guru/whae guru, Vahguru or anyother spelling, as long it means what we think it means is fine too.

Perhaps the riddle can be solved if one cultivates bibek buddh and accepts the next level of thought, that is bestowed upon us by our Guru Sahiban. We cannot always keep looking at everything with vedantic coloured glasses. The yajnas and mantras had their day, now it is time for gurmatt, atleast for the sikhs.

Mrs A Singh

Dear Members

Waahguroo, Waaheguroo, Waahiguroo, Waahaiguroo; V in place of W. - many possibilities.

It appears that the spellings have not been standardized even in Gurmukhi script. For example, on pages 1087 & 1088 of Mahan Kosh of Bhai Kahn Singh

Nabha are given   three different spellings , and Dr. Gopal Singh gives a

4th spelling in Glossary page viii of vol. 1 of the SGGS.

The pronunciation also varies greatly; with short or prolonged wovels- a,e/i,ai, oo, or u.

Chronology:

1)" In Kartarpur [Guru Nanak] established holy congregation

As the Realm Eternal - the Realm of Truth.

And imparted [to sadh sangat]

Divine Word Vahiguru.

             (Varan Bhai Gurdas, Var 24.1)"

Etymology:

1)"Paurie 49 of Var 1, where Bhai Gudas has given an explanation how the term Waheguru was put together. Its four consonants vavva, hahha, gagga and raara come from Vaasdev, Hari, Gobind and Ram." Would "A" be for Allah; "e" for Eshwar, and "o" for Om?

2) "Wahid" meaning one or only one is another thought about the origin of the word. Questionable! How come "d"  disappeared, and when? Why Waheguru and not Wahidguru?

Bottomline:

>From: "Jagpal  S.Tiwana" <tiwana2@istar.ca>

Sikh Scholars Gurbachan Singh Talib( Encyclp. Sikhism), Hew

>McLeod(Historical Dictionary), Pashaura Singh( see his missives) prefer

>Vahiguru. Spellings of this important word must be standardized. It

>becomes easy to make a search if all use one standardized spellings.

>

>With warm regards,

>

>

>Jagpal S Tiwana

I bet scholars Talib and Singh pronounce it as "w" and McLeod as "v". The "v" sound does not exist in north Indian language.

Watch the Indian TV programs this weekend, and you will hear: "wancouwer" instead of Vancouver repeated many times by different people.

Dear members:

I did not pay attention to the roman spellings of "Waheguru". Transliteration/transcription of Punjabi words has not been standardized. Therefore everybody converts according to his own rules. Normally one should use the diacritics to represent longer vowel sounds and hard consonants. But we do not have that facility during normal typing. Without the use of diacritics, people write V/Waheguru V/Wahiguru V/Waheguroo I would prefer to use Vahiguru. Guru is now an English word. Sihari is best represented by ' i '. V or W, well my tongue and senses are not sharp enough to distinguish.

Regards

Joginder Ahluwalia

Jagpal S. Tiwana Ji writes :

>> Another thing worth noting is that our links with Hinduism are quite

deeper

 despite Singh Sabha leaders tried to play them down. It is quite  clear  from  Paurie 49 of Var 1, where Bhai Gudas has given an explanation  how the term Waheguru was put together. Its four consonants vavva, hahha,  gagga and raara come from Vaasdev, Hari, Gobind and Ram.<<

   -------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jagpal Ji, are you trying to say that Sikhism is a form of Hinduism? There are few 'Gurmat' rules that Sikhs have to follow to be called "Sikhs". They do not split the words like OANKAAR and WAHEGURU. In case of Waheguru all that Bhai Gurdas is trying to explain is that there are no  mythical Gods; there is ONE and only ONE --GOD. Perhaps, the fundamental difference between Sikhism and Hinduism is that in Sikhism Guru is a permanant entity and we accept the religion thru Guru's word; while Hinduism goes by their six systems of philosophy. It is an accepted fact that background of Sikhism is Semitic and Vedantic, largely Vedantic. But  its presentation is  original and distinct. It has no commonality with Hinduism in the practice of religion.Our Gurus were trying to reform mostly Hindus(Indians) who were going astray from spirituality because of rituals and superstitions being promoted by Brahmins. Gurus in order to spread their message had to use the terms in use then and understandable to people. Our Gurus were also coaching Muslims but it was mainly on "tolerance" and that is why not many 'muslim' terms have been used in SGGS. Besides, muslims were a ruling class and not many of them would heed to our Gurus teachings.

Ajit S. Batra

This thread on "Waheguru" brings to mind all sorts of names lavished in different tongues on one and only Supreme Being. As a Sikh I grew up with "Waheguru" irrespective of number of times it was used in SGGS or other revered granths. I am aware that this 'word' is transformed into a powerful mantra and recited with abandon by worshippers at some Samaghams.  There are others who firmly believe in  direct bonding, anytime anywhere, with the omnipresent Almighty/Waheguru. Umpteen abstract philosophies abound this topic.

We had previously discussed adoption of appropriate English letters for certain Punjabi words, including Waheguru. Judging by consensus, the conclusions were based on phonetics. Letter "Waa-Waa"  in gurumukhi should adopt the English letter "W" and not "V" - sound represented by "V" is different and has no equivalent in gurumukhi. Diaspora raised youth will pronounce the word water with 'W" and never "V"!

Indians using English as a second language are rarely adept in differentiating between their "Vs" and "Ws" - e.g.: " water" sounds like "Vater" and  "wind" changes to "vind", etc. I am sure Jaggi vir/weer can expand this list!

Weri, weri best Vishes for the weekend

Tejpal S. Thind

Dear members

The subject has been well discussed in our forum.The

5th Guru in rag Asa at page 376 of the SGGS has written'vemuhtaj veparwah-Nanak das kaho gur vah.'The word waheguru without the sihari occurs at page 1403and1404 of the SGGS.I think that this points to the expression being an expression of sheer ecstasy at the grace of the Guru/God.Should we not accept 'wahguru or vahguru'in place of more common 'waheguru'?

--- In Sikh-Diaspora@yahoogroups.com, guravtar@a... wrote:

> "Evolution of Sikhism from Hinduism--so Sikhism is Hinduism"????

Dear members

IMHO despite the fact that the SGGS leans heavily on the religiuos

heritage of the Indian spiritual tradition the modern Sikhs display

an uncalled for touchiness about the term 'Hindu'.The comparison that

is sought to be drawn with the three relgions of the Semitic

tradition is not valid as unlike these three religions which have

clearcut boudaries drawn what we call Hinduism is an amorphous system

of beliefs without any clearcut boundaries between one and the

other.It was this difficulty for the Semites that made them coin the

word Hindu.Hinduism in this sense is a misnomer.It is a reconstruct

by the followers of the system of beliefs current in India as a

defence against the challenge posed by the more or less monolithic

Christianity or Islam.There is no doubt that with their own separate

scripture in the SGGS and a tradition Sikhism has emerged as a

distinct separate relgion but it can not be denied that it is a

product of the Indian spiritual tradition which is also called the

Hindu tradition.This touchiness is a recent phenomenon produced by an

inferiority complex generated by the Western scholars extolling the

merit of the vedas and other religious texts as also the attack from

the Arya Smaj denigrating the Sikh Gurus and their teaching.The

balanced approach requires that we should be proud of our Indian or

Hindu heritage and at the same time firmly adhering to the SGGS and

our own rich tradition of distict identity and worship.If some Hindus

are beholden to what the Sikh Gurus and the Sikhs have done for them

why should we be upset about it?No one can change the contents of the

SGGS which is a heritage that The Gurus guarded so jealously.

Surain Dhanoa

--- In Sikh-Diaspora@yahoogroups.com, guravtar@a... wrote:

> "Evolution of Sikhism from Hinduism--so Sikhism is Hinduism"????

Dear members

IMHO despite the fact that the SGGS leans heavily on the religiuos

heritage of the Indian spiritual tradition the modern Sikhs display

an uncalled for touchiness about the term 'Hindu'.The comparison that

is sought to be drawn with the three relgions of the Semitic

tradition is not valid as unlike these three religions which have

clearcut boudaries drawn what we call Hinduism is an amorphous system

of beliefs without any clearcut boundaries between one and the

other.It was this difficulty for the Semites that made them coin the

word Hindu.Hinduism in this sense is a misnomer.It is a reconstruct

by the followers of the system of beliefs current in India as a

defence against the challenge posed by the more or less monolithic

Christianity or Islam.There is no doubt that with their own separate

scripture in the SGGS and a tradition Sikhism has emerged as a

distinct separate relgion but it can not be denied that it is a

product of the Indian spiritual tradition which is also called the

Hindu tradition.This touchiness is a recent phenomenon produced by an

inferiority complex generated by the Western scholars extolling the

merit of the vedas and other religious texts as also the attack from

the Arya Smaj denigrating the Sikh Gurus and their teaching.The

balanced approach requires that we should be proud of our Indian or

Hindu heritage and at the same time firmly adhering to the SGGS and

our own rich tradition of distict identity and worship.If some Hindus

are beholden to what the Sikh Gurus and the Sikhs have done for them

why should we be upset about it?No one can change the contents of the

SGGS which is a heritage that The Gurus guarded so jealously.

--- In Sikh-Diaspora@yahoogroups.com, guravtar@a... wrote:

> "Evolution of Sikhism from Hinduism--so Sikhism is Hinduism"????

Dear members

IMHO despite the fact that the SGGS leans heavily on the religiuos

heritage of the Indian spiritual tradition the modern Sikhs display

an uncalled for touchiness about the term 'Hindu'.The comparison that

is sought to be drawn with the three relgions of the Semitic

tradition is not valid as unlike these three religions which have

clearcut boudaries drawn what we call Hinduism is an amorphous system

of beliefs without any clearcut boundaries between one and the

other.It was this difficulty for the Semites that made them coin the

word Hindu.Hinduism in this sense is a misnomer.It is a reconstruct

by the followers of the system of beliefs current in India as a

defence against the challenge posed by the more or less monolithic

Christianity or Islam.There is no doubt that with their own separate

scripture in the SGGS and a tradition Sikhism has emerged as a

distinct separate relgion but it can not be denied that it is a

product of the Indian spiritual tradition which is also called the

Hindu tradition.This touchiness is a recent phenomenon produced by an

inferiority complex generated by the Western scholars extolling the

merit of the vedas and other religious texts as also the attack from

the Arya Smaj denigrating the Sikh Gurus and their teaching.The

balanced approach requires that we should be proud of our Indian or

Hindu heritage and at the same time firmly adhering to the SGGS and

our own rich tradition of distict identity and worship.If some Hindus

are beholden to what the Sikh Gurus and the Sikhs have done for them

why should we be upset about it?No one can change the contents of the

SGGS which is a heritage that The Gurus guarded so jealously.

"Jagpal S.Tiwana" <tiwana2@istar.ca> wrote:

**However, its(Sikhism) links with Hinduism cannot be denied. It has evolved out of the Sant tradition of medieval India. We find almost all the important bhagtas of the Sant tradition represented in Guru Granth Sahib. Sant tradition was a reform movement of Hinduism as most historians place it in

Hinduism.**

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My response : Sikhs and Hindus have relationships with each other family wise, but religionwise, Sikhism has no linkage with Hinduism. Differentiate between 'person' and 'religion'. Sikhism is distinct and original. See my original message on the subject. (Jagpal Ji, just for our knowledge sake would you be kind to find from history/historians if Hinduism was ever practiced in accordance with Sant Tradition. My info. is Sant Tradition remained confined to Sants and also it is not forebearer of Sikhism.)

Jagpal Ji continues:

**Even the term Waheguru was put together with the four consonants vavva, hahha, gagga and raara come from Vaasdev, Hari, Gobind and Ram as explained by Bhai Gurdas.**

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 My response : Then what, if Bhai Gurdas coined the word Waheguru using first letters from names of mythical gods.! Does Gurmat accept the existence of mythical gods? No it does not and therefore it has no linkage with Hinduism. We are Sikhs and we have to play by Gurmat rules. Waheguru is a unique word used by believers of Gurmat to address ONE and only ONE GOD. (By the way Bhai Gurdas was  Masand at Agra posted by 4th Guru Ji to spread the message of Sikhism. He returned to Amritsar during 5th Guru Ji's time and condemned Prithvi Raj for his actions against 5th Guru Ji. see Vaar 36 which condemns Prithvi Raj)

Jagpal Ji continues:

**Many festivals  like Baisakhi, holi, Dewali, Lorhi, Rakhari, Basant Panchami are common. Origins of many customs, rituals and ceremonies like Akhand path, distribution of Parshad, cremation of the dead, respect for cow are the same.**

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My response: These are family and friends "get together" events. I will leave it at that. I cannot go item by item unless you point something specific.

Jagpal Ji continues:

**Sikh names, like Ram Singh,  Sham Singh, Narayan Singh, Bhagwan Singh, Hari Singh, Gopal Singh, Lachhaman Singh,  Ishwar Singh, Arjun Singh, kishan Singh etc are named after Hindu gods. Golden Temple is Harimandir.  Last name. " Singh" was also used by many communities in India before the origin of Khalsa.**

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My Response :There is a Gurmat rule which we learn at home and in 'divinity' classes in Khalsa School or college. That names like Ram, Sham,Hari etc; etc mean different to different followers. For Sikhs--ONE and only ONE GOD. For followers of Hinduism, it may be their special God. Again let us not get confused with the common terms.

Jagpal Ji continues:

**Since most of the conversions were from Hindus, the bond between the two communities is very strong as passionately defended by Bibi Manjit Kaur ji of Singapore in her missive on Rakhari: " .my mother has a "Hindu" brother. He hails from a Hindu Brahmin family (he's a Sharma) and has taken on the role of "Mamaji" for all the weddings we've had in our family. As far as my siblings and I are concerned, he's our Mamaji. And yes, my mother ties Rakhri on him every year. These are the ties that bind folks. Whether its a Hindu or a Northern Indian tradition, I don't really care. I wholeheartedly salute and embrace this tradition."**

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My Response: Two members are related by blood and practice different religions. They love and respect each other's customs and traditions. This does not mean that Sikhism is linked with Hinduism.

Jagpal Ji cotinues :

**Bhai Veer Singh and other Singh Sabha leaders tried to play down these common features and links. Even now when something occurs in Dasam Granth which reflects Hindu influence, some Sikh scholars rush to explain it as interpolation by a Brahmin. Who is that mysterious Brahmin, they have failed to identify.**

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"Gurmatwise", Singh Sabha restored the religion which had degraded due to collapse of Sikh Raj. For this  credit must go to Singh Sabha. But they went overboard regulating the personal and private lives of Sikhs thru Rahit Maryada. They combined religion with politics which gave birth to SGPC, Akal Takhat Jathedaars and Akali party who in turn engaged in un-Sikh activities creating anti-feelings -----anti-Hindu,anti-Gandhi, anti-India etc;etc. ----resulting in the raid of Golden Temple in 1984.

Ajit S. Batra

>>>the modern Sikhs display an uncalled for touchiness about the term

>>>'Hindu'.<<<

The reason why "modern" Sikhs display a touchiness about the term "Hindu" should be clear to anyone who knows the origin and meaning of the term "Hindu", which is a derogatory word. [Those interested in studying a judicial pronouncement on the meaning of the term "Hindu" might wish to refer to judgement Cr. M. 1356-M/1984 of the Punjab and Haryana High Court delivered on 11th May 1984].

We have some scholars of Persian language as the members of SD. I am sure they would elaborate on the meaning of the term better.

It has already been stated that the word "Hindu" is not indigeneous but was imposed on the Indians by the Turks. Thus any section of Indians has the right to refuse being addressed by the word. It is interesting to note that the British had also imposed a similar word "Blacky" on the Indians- however this doesn't have any takers!

Infact many learned "Hindus" reject this term. For example Arya Samajis preferred to be called Aryans to Hindus. Bhagwan Das, who was a Hindu theologian of great glory has taken the resort to calling Hinduism, "Vedism". Another famous Hindu theologian R.N. Suryanarayana has stated,"Hinduism is a very vague term. It has neither denotation nor connotation. It conveys no meaning to us". He further comments,"The term Hinduism is very vague. It is to be rejected summarily- importance of names as well as forms".

With Regards,

Dear members

There is one important fact about the Singh Sabha which must be kept

in mind while evaluating the contribution made by the Singh Sabha to

Sikh renaissance.This is that fear was the genesis of the movement at

a time when 'raj karega Khalsa'was lying in shambles.The fear was

generated by the defeat of the Khalsa at the hands of the British,the

attack fom the Christian missionariesand the Hindu resurgence

symbolised by the Arya samaj.Guru Gobind Singh had made fear as an

emotion unknown to the Khalsa.The Singh Sabha reconstruct of the

Khalsa and their rahit has been tainted and it made the Sikhs of the

20th century of peripheral importance in the public life of India and

it has continued to deprive the Sikhs of their heritage of the moral

leadership of the humanity.

Sub: Sikhism and Hinduism

We all know that Sikh philosophy incorporated in our scripture SGGS was influenced by the conditions and thinking then prevalent, before the advent of Sikhism and mostly by Hindu Vedanta. To emphasize, I want to underscore " before the advent of Sikhism". But does it make any sense to barrage Sikhism with Hinduism or start establishing links with Hinduism on such points as coining of term "waheguru" by Bhai Gurdas and thereby coming to conclusion "our links with Hinduism are quite deeper"( Tiwana Ji' words).

Obviously, our Guru's  concluded that truths revealed in the Vedas were  not final or complete. So, they came out with their vision of truth which is SIKHISM. This is obvious from the following verse in SGGS, Asa Raag, M3, page 360: Khat Darshan Vartai Vartara ll Gur kaa Darshan Agam Apaaraa ll.  Guru System which is SIKHISM, surpasses the six systems of Hinduism.

Our SGGS incorporates essentials of all faiths Islam, Budhism and Hinduism. So there are lot of agreements with other religions. Let us keep the two religions independent of each other and keep our links with the followers of other faiths thru blood and family relationships, thru celebration of festivals and other cultural events. Bhul Chuk Maaf, Ajit S. Batra

Tejpal wirji,

Bravo. About time.

Thank you for taking the bull by the horns. Meherbani, asante.

         and best wishes to you too :-)      ...Jaggi (Canada).

Dear Members

Waheguru is well established and used in Sikh religion. It may be important theoretically how, when and where it originated. Let us look at the practical aspect of it.

When we say meditate what exactly we mean? How can we explain to a young fellow and in fact it includes me as well? Can we explain scientifically its benefits.? Just the other day I was watching a show on TV where they were discussing meditation to relieve stress with the help of religion.

First they started with Buddhism and used electronic devises to show the benefits of meditation in reducing stress.

Then they showed a Sikh women belonging to Harbhajan Singh Yogi's group. First they took MRI while not meditating to set the base line. They at one point while she was in the machine they told her to start meditation. The MRI scan of the brain changed dramatically especially the area that cause stress. Then she stopped meditation and the MRI scan returned to the original position.

They asked what she was doing while meditating? She replied she first said SAT NAAM (God's  name is truth) taking breath in and then said WAHEGURU (God is great or wonderful) taking breath out, done slowly. Keep this cycle as long as one wants it. They discussed that is it due to controlling breath that caused it? The expert in MRI said no. It is more deeper in the brain.

To me it makes sense. Let us have opinion of others on this issue.

Ajit and Jagpal wirjio,

Really enjoyed these missives from you BOTH.

Both were very educational, well researched and well written.

Thank you both and SD for making this available to me.

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